Episode 2: Building Better Equity Plans With Infinite Equity’s Robyn Shutak

Rodney:

On today's episode of Invested at Work, I'm pleased to be joined by Robyn Shutak, partner at Infinite Equity. Welcome, Robyn.

Robyn:

Hi, Rodney. Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me, and excited to be here.

Rodney:

Absolutely. Now Robyn, you and I run into each other all the time at the major equity conferences like the Morgan Stanley at Work Thrive Conference, and some of our listeners may have seen you at these conferences, sharing insights on panel discussions, but for those that haven't, can you give us a little background on Infinite Equity and more specifically your role at Infinite Equity?

Robyn:

Certainly, yes. I am Robyn Shutak with Infinite Equity. Infinite Equity is an end-to-end equity compensation solutions firm. So, we help design equity compensation programs, we help administer them. We also help support the compliance and accounting around those programs. And then of course, the communication. So, really the end-to-end spectrum around equity compensation.

Rodney:

Excellent. I know you've been in the industry for a number of years. Can you talk a little bit about some of the roles you've held within the industry?

Robyn:

Absolutely.  So I've worked for the Global Equity Organization and then also the National Association of Stock Plan Professionals, so two of the largest industry associations in the space, and then also as an issuer managing the stock programs for companies in the San Diego area early on in my career. I have done many different roles. And then most recently now a partner doing consulting at Infinite Equity.

Rodney:

And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on the show, because wanted to talk about some of the statistics we found in our fourth annual Morgan Stanley at work State of the Workplace Financial Benefits survey. First what I want to throw out to you is that what we found when we surveyed the HR leaders is 76% said that their company is offering some form of equity compensation. And that has been an increase of 12 percentage points from where it was in our first survey several years ago. Why do you think increasingly companies are offering equity compensation to their employees?

Robyn:

That is a great question, and I'm very familiar with that survey. I love that survey. I reference it all the time in many of our presentations, because it's pretty profound. And I love to see that uptake in activity around equity compensation at organizations. What I think are some of those reasons are we live in a very virtual environment today and equity is key to motivating and engaging participants. And so, companies are recognizing that. They're recognizing that the way to motivate their global and virtual workforce is through equity compensation. But a couple of other things. Employee ownership as a just general practice I think has really caught on. There's so much research around employee ownership as a way to infuse a wonderful culture. And companies are buying into that, they're catching on and they're adopting those practices. Definitely I'm seeing that as one of the reasons why equity compensation has really kind of taken on, and you're seeing that increase in your survey.

Also, I would say that the alignment with company objectives is a big component of this, where there are a lot of studies out there, one of those coming from the Global Equity Organization that high-performing companies do grant equity compensation. You can directly correlate the performance of a company based on the fact that they are granting equity to their participants. That's a big one for me, and I think that's really compelling.

Rodney:

How about using it as a recruitment tool? What are some of the ways companies can formulate an equity compensation to utilize it to attract new talent? What are some of the key things they need to think about when doing that?

Robyn:

Definitely this comes up in a lot of conversations with our clients around what can we do that is just a good sound practice. And one not to get overly complicated with your programs. I think complication convolutes the spirit of equity compensation. I do love creativity, but at some level. And then I think the other component of it is the ability to look at what other companies are doing within the space that you're comparing yourself to. Companies always ask, "What are our peers doing?" And when you look at what your peers are doing, you either want to do something similar or much more competitive. And so that is one way that we always recommend that you go about the exercise of designing a program that will truly recruit and retain employees. And to that end, so we might start with introducing an employee stock purchase plan to a client and talking about why you need to have one.

And then we look at what their peers are doing, and they might see that only three peers are actually offering an employee stock purchase plan. But to me that message is you need to have one, because that is your competitive differentiator. I think there's a lot of things that you can do. Those are a few things that just shortly come to mind.

Rodney:

We hear a lot the importance of transparency when it comes to paying compensation to employees today, especially during the recruitment process. Is there anything that you advise your clients on making sure that as they're communicating, "Hey, here's the benefit of coming to work for us." As you said, maybe an employee stock purchase plan, we grant RSUs, whatever we do, and making sure that those potential employees understand what is going to be the benefit?

Robyn:

Okay. In terms of recruits and transparency, I think it's always important to have a good practice of being transparent in what the expectation is for the participant or the potential candidate to understand what they're getting from a total compensation value and why the company might be committed to employee ownership as a culture, as a broad-based employee ownership culture. If we can share things like transparency around performance and financials that infuses that trust and that transparency around what people need to do to achieve goals within the business. The education and training that people will get around equity compensation as an employee. Sharing what that holistically might look like for a candidate can be very powerful as well, so that they can understand that once they come on board, they will have the ability to deeply understand and appreciate the value of the equity that they will be receiving and how they can actually maximize that arrangement that is being proposed to them. I think that's it.

Rodney:

Great. In addition to focusing on recruiting, you'd mentioned earlier about the value of equity and retaining employees. And another statistic I want to share from our State of the Workplace Survey is that 95% of HR leaders say that equity compensation is the most effective way to motivate and engage employees. And on the employee side, eight out of 10 employees agree with that. But I would imagine, Robyn that it's not just, "I'm the equity genie and I'm giving equity and now everyone's motivated and everyone in the land is happy." More has to go into it, I would imagine. And what is that more to make sure that when granting that equity, that it does serve the objective of motivating, retaining and engaging employees?

Robyn:

I love this question. Thank you for asking it. It is so important to, it cannot be a passive process where you just grant the equity and expect people to understand it. And that's really a focus of my role here at Infinite Equity or in my organization is to make sure that employees understand and appreciate what they are getting. And we do that through many ways. And that all comes down to education and your commitment to education. And I do believe that in one of your surveys, Rodney, there is some profound information around companies really making an impact or a commitment to education and training. And that's where I think you have to hang your hat is that you are having conversations with your participants at the inception of the grant and throughout the life cycle of the equity award. We're talking about the value of the equity delivered at the time of the grant, what it could potentially mean for them as they receive additional grants over time, and how that compounded effect becomes so powerful and valuable for their future.

But then also talking about taxation. Taxation when it's important at a time for them, not taxation at the time of the grant, that's not necessarily meaningful for them. That's not the right time to capture those conversations. We want to be talking about the important aspects of their equity grant during the life cycle of the award when it's most meaningful for them. And that can be in many different channels, whether it's through financial guidance, bringing in a financial advisor, or bringing in a subject matter expert like people at our firm to help do a town hall training to discuss what it is they're getting, having the company also align with what the company's objectives and philosophy are around equity compensation, and then maybe coupling that with a sit through on how to actually utilize a solution like Morgan Stanley's to actually go in and understand what it is they have and be able to see how they can do things with their equity, if you will.

Rodney:

You mentioned our study in your response, and it's interesting, because what we did find is that the overwhelming majority of employees do say that they feel that their employer is responsible and should be doing more to help them understand their benefits. However, both HR leaders and also employees said that, only less than half said that their employer efforts around participant education are going very well. Why do you think employers are falling short when it comes to educating employees about their benefits, their financial benefits, like equity compensation?

Robyn:

Okay. If you recall when we started this conversation, I mentioned I've been in this space for a really long time and I've seen an evolution here. There was a time, and not until recently, where companies just really didn't do a lot around communications. They just didn't have budget. They always said they didn't have budget. That is moving, the dial has moved. And I think another component to that is companies have always been reticent to provide any sort of financial guidance around equity compensation. And I have a strong opinion on that that that is not a good practice. I believe if you are in the business of granting equity compensation as an employer, you have an obligation to educate your participants on what it means to have a taxable event. What can you do with your equity? A lot of companies are so gun shy around this, and I'm on a crusade to change that. Because I think, like I said, you cannot be in this business of granting equity and be passive in your delivery.

You need to provide that end-to-end stream on what can be done with that equity, how can you maximize it? And so bringing in people that can help solve for those areas that maybe the company isn't savvy in is so important. And there's a difference between providing financial advice and tax advice versus education. And there is a good demarcation. And so many companies just don't feel comfortable with that sort of gray area. And that is where I think firms like yourself and ours can come in, because we aren't bound by some of those constraints that companies might feel around the pressure not to touch on those subjects.

Rodney:

Yeah, it's about letting employees know what are your options. I know we're talking equity, so I use the word options, but-

Robyn:

Yeah.

Rodney:

It really is about letting them know the options. It's not saying, "Do this or do that." It's more about, "Here are your potential options, A, B, and C. Here's the consequences if you do A, B and C."

Robyn:

You couldn't have said it better. Exactly. There are different paths to, for example, liquidity. We can talk about what those are and then what can you do with those if you have a liquidity event? There are A, B, C options. I am not telling you exactly what option to take, but that you definitely need to have some guidance at that very final point in the life cycle of equity compensation that is such a missed opportunity and is something we're very bullish on as well.

Rodney:

And there's a disconnect that we find in our research where even though as I said at the top, 76% of HR leaders said that their companies offering some form of equity compensation. On the employee side we only found 38% of employees said that their company offers equity compensation. Now, given we didn't interview the same employees from the same places that the HR leaders necessarily came from, so there may have been some overlap or no overlap. But part of that may very well have been to a lack of awareness. And what can companies do to create more awareness? You talked about trainings. Are those trainings different for different types of workforces? Different demographics within the workforce?

Robyn:

A hundred percent. You cannot take a one-size-fits-all approach to your education and training. It has to be multifaceted. It needs to include a technology outlet, including videos. It should include a myriad of other assets like one-pagers, in-person sessions, oh gosh, office hours. We're very big on office hours. Having the ability for people to come and visit us and just to be able to answer whatever is on their mind around their equity compensation. There's so many things that companies can do to really amplify the awareness around their programs. And again, it's also that addressing people at a time when it's important to them. So, I'll give an example. In ESPP, you want to talk about enrollment at the time of ESPP, and only enrollment, and what that means to enroll in the ESPP. Then you want to talk about the purchase and what that means at the time of the purchase. And then taxation at a later when we're nearing year-end. And all of that can come through participant training sessions.

One of the other things that is very popular within our space are one-pagers. People love one-pagers. A quick hit on, "What is this program that I can reference? It's with me at my desk." And FAQs, but all of those things need to be branded in the companies. All of those things need to be branded to match the company's look and feel so that it reinforces the culture of the organization. We often think about our external customers and we are very careful about how we communicate with them, and we make sure that we have branding, we use our logos, we use our colors and all of our marketing external. We need to treat our internal clients and customers who receive equity the very same way as we do with our external customers, so that everything looks and feels very similar to what you might see outward facing, because that builds trust. Branding, using icons that resonate with the company, all of those things very critical to the overall experience as well in reinforcing the messaging.

Rodney:

And talking about company culture and equity compensation, every company has business objectives, every company has a particular culture. How important is it to align the equity compensation program with both business objectives and the culture at a company?

Robyn:

Yes, in every engagement that we start with a client, when it's focused on designing a program we always start with trying to understand what their goals and objectives are for their program. And oftentimes it's, "Hey, I want to offer a broad-based equity compensation program." Well, if that's something that's important to you, you need to put in the right design levers under your program to actually achieve that. And there's a number of things that can happen. For example, I'll use an ESPP again. If you're going to design an ESPP and you truly want broad-based participation, you definitely want to make sure that you have the right design features in there, including a strong discount, a 24-month offering, a very rich program so that people are going to participate in it. And you are going to get that broad-based participation that you want.

Conversely, if you put in a plan that is a 5% discount, no look back. For our audience who understands ESPPs, that's not going to warrant that participation that you're looking for. And it's probably going to provide you with some really lackluster experiences. And so, to answer a question, if you really want to broad, broad-based equity compensation program, broad-based ownership culture, you have to put in the right design levers. And there's a lot of design levers that you can pull to create that really compelling program.

Rodney:

What are some companies, without naming names, what are some companies that have gotten it right and what did they do to get it right when it comes to offering equity compensation and it being effective to whatever the particular objective they had in place for that program?

Robyn:

Love this question too. So many good questions. Yes, I will speak to a client that won a GEO award that the Global Equity Organization that I spoke about earlier, they have GEO awards every year. This company won a GEO award a couple of years ago for a program that they put in place around their IPO. They were going to go public, and they really wanted to encourage, again, a broad-based ownership culture. What they did was they introduced an ESPP. It was a non-traditional ESPP and qualified ESPP. And with a non-qualified ESPP, employees are taxed at purchase. And in this case, the company wanted to make sure that the employees were not adversely impacted by that. So, they put in a net settlement feature to ultimately help cover the taxes for the participants. That was a really nice benefit, something we've not really seen in this industry.

But the really great part about this program was they also introduced a seed grant along with that ESPP offering. And what that is it was effectively just an RSU grant that was issued at the time of the launch of the ESPP at IPO. And anybody who enrolled in the ESPP at the time of IPO also got the seed grant, 50 RSU shares. And those vested after six months if they stayed into the ESPP program through that first offering period. That 50 shares was equivalent to about $2,000 in value. Really great way to infuse participation in their program and create that sustainability for the future. Because once you're in an ESPP, there's lots of research to show that you stay in, you just kind of let that momentum ride, and you don't actually opt out unless you have some sort of financial incident that might warrant you to come out of it. But inertia comes in and you basically stay in the plan.

That was their way to get people in the program by offering basically $2,000 to anyone who stayed into the program after that completion of that first offering. It was really innovative, it was very effective, and I think they ended up with a 60% initial uptake, which is really strong participation.

Rodney:

Wow. Wow. That is, and I can see the attraction of that. Now, let's go on the other side. What are some of the challenges that you've seen companies face when implementing an equity compensation program?

Robyn:

Yeah, so it's the gamut. Definitely in a down market, it can be really tough to sustain a broad-based culture, because you ultimately, or wanting to achieve an ownership culture for everyone to participate in a program may not be sustainable because of dilution. You might be granting equity to everyone. And in fact, that isn't sustainable because you're diluting the interest of existing shareholders.

And you also have external parties as well, especially if you're a public company, you've got proxy regulators, ISS, Glass Lewis, they're the police in this space and they want to make sure that you're doing all the right things. That is a concern. You want to make sure that you're complying with all of those rules and guidelines that are set out by ISS and Glass Lewis. But then internally you also have your stakeholders, your leadership, who may not be on board entirely with a new program. For example, a lot of times when companies are experiencing maybe compressed stock prices, and ESPP is a great way to create some morale. And it's a great time to introduce a program around an ESPP to purchase stock at a lower price.

But then you've got the CFO who might come in and say, "Well, we can't afford this, there are compensation cost associated with it and share usage might increase." They might be the naysayer. You have to kind of get them on board and convert them to the other side. It's a lot of that just having those right conversations, getting people on board to feel like the approach is appropriate. And then also, when you ultimately introduce a program during compressed stock prices or a market where it's challenging, you're going to face dilution constraints. You only have a limited pool of shares to draw from to be able to issue grants under. And in a market that's got depressed stock prices, you often go through your pool much more quickly. You're spending your money much more quickly. And that is also diluting existing shareholders' ownership percentage. It might mean that you can't actually introduce a program for a broad-based employee population. And maybe that's not the spirit of what you intended with your program.

Rodney:

There are things that may be able to overcome, but a term that I keep hearing is burn rate. Can you tell me what is burn rate and what is the significance of burn rate?

Robyn:

Absolutely, and I alluded to that just a moment ago, so I'm glad you clarified or asked for some clarification around the term. I kind of liken it to, you get X amount of dollars to spend or have X amount of dollars in your savings account to spend, and it's really very similar. And how quickly are you burning through your cash? Same kind of concept with equity. If you are granting equity and you have a limited pool of shares, how quickly you're using those shares is very important. Because you don't want to run out of shares. And if you do, you're going to be in a tricky position with your employees who expect equity compensation. And it's a really important metric for total rewards leaders to be tracking and understanding. And it just ties to the health of your program. That's effectively what the burn rate is, how quickly you're going through your shares, how quickly you're doling them out.

And so when stock prices are compressed, you often go through your shares much more quickly. Because it takes a lot more shares to deliver the same value in a down market than it would in a higher market. For example, Robyn, we're going to grant you $10,000 of value, and to do that at maybe a higher stock price, it might only take $1,000, 1,000 shares. But in a depressed market where the stock price is lower, it's going to take more shares to deliver that same $10,000 value. That is what is very tricky about having stock prices be depressed and experiencing a depressed stock market. Yeah, go ahead.

Rodney:

No, I would also imagine that when stock prices are depressed, sometimes the value of the employees grants are underwater. What are some things that a company can do too, because sure employees may be coming to the HR leaders and saying, "Hey, my RSUs are underwater and what's going on? What can I do?" Have you heard of situations like that and dealt with situations like that among clients and what have you talked to them about?

Robyn:

Yes, a big problem. The one thing I will say is that granting stock options where this is most prevalent, the underwater stock option issue or underwater experience is most prevalent is with companies who grant stock options. And many of those companies are the same companies that went public a couple of years ago when the IPO market was so strong. And that's because there was a carry forward or legacy stock options that came from practices that they were following when they were a private company. Then they go public a couple of years ago, and now they have these stock options that are underwater because their IPO maybe didn't perform as well as they had planned. Fast-forward a couple of years and the stock prices are depressed, and now you have a lot of equity that is underwater. And when we talk about equity underwater, that effectively just means that your equity that you have is worthless.

In practice it would mean that Robyn gets a grant for $10,000 at a $5 exercise price, and now the stock price is $3. That is not meaningful for me. My stock is underwater, and so I'm not going to exercise my option at $5 when the stock price is trading at $3. In that case, recently we've been helping support many underwater stock option exchanges. And those have to get shareholder approval. Generally, it's a very complicated process to facilitate an underwater stock option exchange in practice. But it is possible, and it is very important from a talent and retention perspective, because when you have a significant amount of underwater options, you are at risk 100% with people departing.

And so an underwater stock option exchange is a great way to address that. And what actually happens there in practice is to allow people or allow your participants who have a certain number of stock options that are underwater, potentially at a certain threshold. You probably wouldn't scoop up the entire universe of your underwater options, but at some level you would look at where the options are out of the money the most and allow those people to participate in the exchange. You would look at eligibility and then those same people could potentially participate in what's this underwater option exchange to then give up those old options for a new option, but with a new vesting schedule.

You get the lower current price, maybe fewer options, maybe RSUs and your vesting schedule potentially reset. There's some best practices around how you can structure an exchange, and it gets very creative. But it's one way to address this. And then like I said, it could be an option for option exchange or it could be an option for RSU exchange. And I really do like the option for RSU exchange, because it gets rid of those options that are just not prevalent in practice any longer.

Rodney:

We've talked about using equity compensation as a way to attract employees, engage employees, retain employees, but employees leave. What are some things that companies need to do for those employees that depart and still have equity as part of or shares or RSUs? Are there any practices that a company should be aware of and think about when communicating to that departing employee?

Robyn:

I kind of think that your off-boarding process is only as good as your education program or your commitment to education during the tenure of the employee who's now leaving. And that's because if you do it right during the entire lifespan of the program, people understand and appreciate what they have. They've been educated around where resources are. They know how to use the platforms that can help them exercise their options or realize value from their RSUs. And coupled with that, if you do a good job there, then your off-boarding should be a very pleasant and seamless experience. But I do believe another component to that is to always make sure that people are given a financial advisor or access to a financial advisor to help them understand what they're left with and what they can do with it. Because that's, again, like we talked about earlier, is the really important factor in all of this.

How can we realize value from our equity, but also understanding constraints around when we can realize that value, because some forms of equity do not allow for a longer period of time to realize some value. For example, stock options, you typically have a limited time in which to exercise your options when you leave the company, sometimes 90 days. So, you really want to make sure that the person who is leaving the company is informed on how long they have to maybe exercise an option. But where can they get their RSUs that have vested, their ESPP shares. And then getting that person connected with them that can actually help them realize some of the value and create a strategic plan around that. And I have such deep appreciation for people who are leaving. Because those people may come back to your firm at some time, and you really want to make sure that they have the most amazing experience, because they're people too, and that you might run across them again.

Rodney:

Yeah, those Boomerang employees.

Robyn:

Yes.

Rodney:

Absolutely. You need to-

Robyn:

Exactly.

Rodney:

Yeah, we've seen that a lot in the recent years where employees leave and especially when we talk about things like the Great Resignation from a couple of years ago, some of those folks had said, "Goodbye, I am going for a more fulfilling life." Came right back and say-

Robyn:

You got it.

Rodney:

"I realize the grass isn't as green and I'd like to come back." And you want them to be able to come back and feel good about coming back.

Robyn:

I completely agree, yes.

Rodney:

Robyn, what are some of the trends you're seeing in the industry right now that our listeners may be able or may want to hear about, because of your unique perspective of advising a portfolio of companies? What are some of the hot topics I'll say in equity compensation?

Robyn:

That's one of the most rewarding things that I do in my job is to be able to see the different things that clients are thinking about. We learn from our clients, they learn from us, but it's really exciting to hear what's happening in the industry through them. And I've been in this industry for a very long time, as I said. But what I've seen most in the past years throughout my career are a lot of regulatory changes and securities law changes and accounting changes. Not always very sexy, but what I'm seeing today is really interesting. And I would say there's about four or five things on my list. A lot of creativity and experimenting around vesting. It's something that you can play with very easily without having to do a complete overhaul of equity compensation program.

There are a lot of companies that have publicly announced that they've gone to potentially a one-year vesting period. And they want to just deliver value more quickly and take a haircut on the overall expense that they're incurring for having to do a four-year grant versus a one-year grant, so you can deliver equity sooner. And ultimately reduce the expense of having to deliver equity over the course of four years. There are others that have omitted the cliff on their four-year vesting, their traditional four-year vesting under their programs. In that case they are just essentially saying, "Hey, if it's not working out for you when you're hired, you can leave sooner. Because we're not going to hold you to" ... I think, what's the term? It's rest and vest, that kind of philosophy where you start the company as a new hire and then all of a sudden you're like, "This isn't the right place for me, but I want to wait around a year for my award to vest after year one."

Getting rid of that, just saying, "Okay, we don't have a cliff any longer." front-loaded vesting, delivering equity more quickly, getting into the hands of people more quickly. That's another area where companies are playing with vesting. And then the others is just helping with burn around the vesting schedules where instead of a four-year vesting, much traditional ... A much more traditional way of actually granting equity, we're doing three-year vesting, and we're taking a haircut on the amount that we're actually granting by 15 or 10%, because we're going to deliver equity sooner, but we're also going to help with our burn. Vesting, a lot of creativity around vesting, lots of conversations around that. Not widely utilized in practice, but I am seeing that a lot. The others that come to mind, choice programs. We are big fans of choice programs. And I think Rodney, you and I had talked about this maybe in one of our pre-conversations, and it's something really exciting to me, and we're seeing a lot more of it in the marketplace now.

Because this generation of people really want flexibility and their benefits, and choice programs are a way to do that. And what that really means is when an employee is given equity, they're given the choice between say, RSUs, restricted stock, or stock options or cash or maybe a mix of the three, and they get to choose. And that really empowers employees to take ownership of what it is that's important to them. Where are they in their life cycle? Maybe they're not a risk-averse kind of person. Maybe they just want RSUs because RSUs are a form of just income really. Or maybe they're willing to take stock options because they feel much more bullish about the company. So, it empowers employees to actually make some real decisions about what equity is meaningful for them. And then also, it allows them to really spend some time trying to understand the equity that they're granting, because usually you get just an RSU grant or a stock option grant, and it's very passive. And you just accept it and you don't do anything more with it.

But when you have the choice, you have to actually make some decisions. And with decisions comes education, right? And it's very similar to a 401(k). With 401(k)s we have a lot of choices. We have to become an active participant in our 401(k) choices, same kind of concepts with a choice program. Those two things. And then just the last one I would say is non-qualified type of ESPPs. We're seeing a lot more non-qualified programs. A non-qualified program is really nice for a couple of reasons. One, it's a unified benefit around the globe. A section 423 qualified ESPP is not meaningful to people outside of the U.S. And it's an isolated benefit for U.S. employees only. Many of our companies in this world are global, so having a non-qualified plan is much easier with communications. Everyone gets the same communications, you have a unified benefit. And then you can also be very tiered in your approach with a non-qualified program around how you structure your program.

It can be designed very differently for your say, leadership versus your rank and file workforce who might have a different need in terms of their equity compensation under an ESPP. You can design the program very differently. You're not constrained by rules and regulations of section 423 that you would be under a qualified plan. Those are three things that are pretty prevalent in my mind.

Rodney:

So Robyn, from this conversation today, I can definitely tell, and from other conversations we've had, that equity compensation is something that you are passionate about. But I want to ask you, when Robyn Shutak in the morning is on her way to work, just thinking about work, what motivates you to get to the office? In other words, what makes you invested at work?

Robyn:

A couple of things. One, practicing what we preach. We are an employee-owned company. And to me, I could stop there. That's so inspiring. That keeps me motivated every single day. We are doing exactly what we are practicing in the market. And I believe that is the single most motivator for me to come to work every day. Beyond that though, from a client perspective I love the variety of clients that we work with. There are always new and innovative things that we are tasked with solving. And the variety just keeps me coming back to work every single day. It's a blessing to work with some amazing clients who have some amazing ideas and are open to amazing ideas. Those are the two things that I would say really, really get me excited.

Rodney:

Robyn, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a wonderful conversation.

Robyn:

Thank you, Rodney so much. It's been a pleasure. I'm so happy to be here, and I hope we can do it again.

Rodney:

Thanks for tuning in. I hope you join us for the next episode of Invested at Work. If you haven’t already, remember to subscribe—and share it with your friends and colleagues!

Be sure to visit us at MorganStanley.com/atwork for more insights on workplace financial benefits, and how Morgan Stanley at Work may be able to help you.

In the meantime, I hope you’ll consider what makes you—and your employees—invested at work.

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